If you think it’s great, as a country, well, more powers. That’s everything from pharmacies even having data, to citizens holding government accountable using these platforms, or even just engaging with information and reading graphs. On the other hand, I’m biased because I’m part of the K-to-12 curriculum committee that put this into action starting last year. Now those — what we call the public key cryptography in mathematics has added a very real danger of being broken within a decade or so, or two decades if you’re optimistic, by the quantum computer themselves. TANG: Well, of course, I watch the artwork done within the Taiwanese renaissance of filmmakers and books and so on, but I wouldn’t say that any of them influenced me to such a high degree as the classics have. If we shorten the iteration to not four years, but actually maybe 60 days, as is the standard iteration in Taiwanese citizens’ initiative, the e-petition platform, then we can iterate more. MC: That is actually one of my key questions—it seems like a big asset that Taiwan has is the recent learning from SARS. MC: You said support but not control. There seems to be this really interesting back and forth relationship between programs that are created by government, and things that are coming up and then sort of how they flip and flop and grow. In the public sector, Audrey served on Taiwan national development council’s open data committee and K-12 curriculum committee; and led the country’s first e-Rulemaking project. I haven’t met an economist that I didn’t like, so I don’t think there’s any particular personality flaws there. I think that’s something that a Confucian approach works, too, except for the Confucianism that is by coding, essentially, the rights, the norms, the best practices norms. When you’re outdoor, two dogs away, indoor, three Shiba Inus away,” and so on. And our ministries, who has teams of participation officers who talk to hashtags . One is about the data norm. AT: From SARS, we learned three important things. TANG: Well, of course, that means that we see democracy as a set of technologies, social technologies. MC: I think that’s brilliant. So that a transition between the zooming levels is much more important than the one and the million level. Now, the autodidact and self-described “conservative anarchist” is a software engineer and the first non-binary digital minister of Taiwan. The first is obvious, because we don’t have an easy-to-cross border. COWEN: How bullish are you on work from a distance? Audrey Tang began reading classical works like the Shūjīng and Tao Te Ching at the age of 5 and learned the programming language Perl at the age of 12. MC: I think there’s a question of technological literacy on both levels. Instead of sending cash home, they can do grocery shopping to make sure that their money is not spent on luxury goods, and so on. COWEN: To what extent do you understand Daoism as standing in opposition to a more hierarchical Confucian view? If I find that I cannot argue from any particular viewpoint, I will book a couple of days to spend time with that community on ethnographic — just hanging out until I rotate my worldview and until I can argue from their viewpoint. Of course, that includes the latest developments of the international scientific community. Just like the example I mentioned of the Singaporean app with Filipino workers in Taiwan buying grocery for their families. I think the core internet is still very much the values of the United States. First of all, I’d like to share this website, which is social innovation. TANG: Well, but election is a kind of rotation; it’s just temporal. I think early successes, and also the way to work themself into the gender equality committee and 12 years of gender mainstreaming work, the gender impact assessment in the public sector, and so on. TANG: I read the Shih Ching, the collection of poems. New conversations every other Wednesday. That’s, again, how digital deliberative technologies can help to unite the research focus of all the resources in various epicenters. MC: I find that interesting, actually, that Taiwan is very plugged into a global knowledge base around this, and that you get this real-time flow of information in a way that hasn’t been as relevant before. We’re not rolling that out. COWEN: What is the future of blockchain in Taiwan? TANG: In Taiwan, whenever there’s a trending, even end-to-end encrypted channels disinformation campaign, there are people who voluntarily report that, just like flagging email as spam — dedicated not to the government, certainly, but to the social sector, with a crowdsource fact-checking mechanism called Coach facts and also the Taiwan FactCheck Center, Michael Penn and so on, part of the international fact-checking network. I mean, I identify mostly as homo sapiens. That is social innovation. For example, this one is about mask, and this says, “Why do you wear a mask?” “Well, to protect yourself from your own unwashed hands.” Say that’s a very individualistic incentive. * Forking refers to making a copy of another author’s open-source code, in order to make changes without affecting the original. AUDREY TANG: Hello. COWEN: It might be, but rages can be dangerous, right? TANG: I don’t know. It shifted from the idea of civic tech being used by only a handful of people, into civil engineering, which is used by pretty much everybody. There are, unfortunately, six people who succumbed to the coronavirus, but six people is not that much by international standards, by far. By working with internet technologies, by working with the implicit assumption of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and of press, end-to-end innovation, and permissionless innovation, and things like that, I’m more imbued in the internet scene, more imbued American value in the internet than a traditional education in the States would, I think. For example, citizens decided to apply pressure to the government. If you view it from an admiring, science-fiction-novel kind of way, I think you can definitely root for it.

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